Attitudes of others

That’s the thing I enjoy, they don’t treat me any different. A lot of them get shocked when I say, “I’m 88.” “Oh! What!” You know? And I suppose I don’t show it either.

So you haven’t felt that people treat you differently because of your age?

No. They do in a sense, they respect – they show you a lot of respect, but- And like people open the car door, they will do things like that with a lot of respect, people do it. But apart from that, they don’t treat me any differently.

I had also an experience, which was a physical experience, because sometimes I use a walking frame to help me get around, and I was moving into a building, a public building, at which was only one door width. I could see a couple of people coming down the corridor, so I was having difficulty opening the door, I was halfway through the door, the people coming out of the door actually pushed me outside in order for them to get outside first. So, rather than step back and allow me to complete entry through the doorway, they actually pushed me out of the way. I found that very confronting.

And that was young people?

Yes. Yeah.

Do you find this issue with ageism is worse coming from – I mean, you talk about that from young people. But, also in meetings, so, it sounds like it’s across the board, it’s not just-

It is across the board, it’s a bit like, historically, I would have said a lot of men are misogynists in the way in which they relate to females. That still is the case, particularly for older men, but that’s not as bad as it used to be, historically. Ageism seems to have taken the place of sexism, but it’s not – look, I don’t want to talk it up as an issue, but it is something that gets talked about often enough by other people and I felt the evidence myself to say that it is an issue today.

Or even at the shopping centre they’ll just barge past without – if you’re going along with a walking stick or something – I’ve seen them barge past and just knock the walking stick down. They don’t even stop to help you pick it up; that’s happened to me several times when I was on my walking stick.

So how does that make you feel when that happens?

Oh I feel terrible.

And generally speaking there’s not enough respect for aged people by the younger generation. Probably people in their forties and fifties have a lot more respect than teenagers and early twenties and thirties for the aged generation.

How do people treat the elderly? Well, when I came to Australia the difference was between heaven and earth. When you board the bus you say “Good day”, when you are going out the driver will say thank you for using his transport. In a tram or bus there will be maximum five people, and frequently I am the only passenger. In Ukraine you wait for two hours in the freezing cold, the tram comes full of passengers and the people literally attack the tram and break in. They stand on the tram steps and hang on the doors, and the driver gets out and starts cursing people. It is terrible to recall this, and I feel embarrassed to talk about it. An elderly palsied man who was shaking was trying to get in, and the tram driver showered him with swear words. I think that man would go home and die after that. Of course when I communicate with believers, they won’t say any of this, they watch what they say. Generally speaking, in your workplace, people will not say a single word without adding a swear word. There they swear and fight, and only bold people can survive.

… say perhaps in a queue at a shop particularly a food shop where everybody is in a hurry, or whatever. And if you happen to be lining up at a counter or whatever it’s most likely to happen that the people who are younger will get served quicker. You will get served and very kindly but not necessarily at the same speed or whenever your turn comes, you may be asked to wait more or less. To some degree I guess it has something to do with one literally getting shorter quite physically. I think I’ve lost about three inches, there’s nothing much I could do about that but it seems to make a difference to other people.

When you turn 50, you become invisible. That’s definitely something that happens. Really interesting. You’re sort of – I wasn’t unattractive when I was younger. I was always – men always sort of noticed and smiled at me and stuff like this. All of a sudden, it was just kind of like this invisible cloak. It took a while to get through that. Then, all of a sudden, it’s sort of like – well, don’t really care. But again, it’s interesting now. If you start hanging around in different areas – like no one notices me in a train carriage, which is fine. I now have purple in my hair and I found out that people notice the purple in your hair and stuff like this. But again, it’s 11 year old girls will notice and you’ll see them. A lot of people sitting in a train don’t notice that sort of thing. Whereas if a good looking woman walks onto the train, you can see the mens’ eyes. So I’ve lost all of that.

If you go into a shop for instance you notice that you’re treated probably a little bit differently, it’s hard to put your finger on. A lot of people describe it as being invisible, I don’t feel that but I do feel that you’re treated a little bit differently. If you’re buying clothes for instance the shop assistant won’t fuss around you as much as when you were younger, doesn’t take the same amount of interest in you. It doesn’t worry me at all, because if I want someone to take an interest in me when I’m buying clothes I’ll force it on them but it’s something that’s noticeable, something that is noticeable.

And that’s just been recently?

Recently yes and maybe I’m seeing things that aren’t there because I’m, as I said to you before, I’m a bit more conscious of my age now than I’ve ever been so maybe I’m seeing things or looking for it in any sign I pick up, I don’t know I can’t ascertain that.

…only that if you’re on public transport or something like that people do offer a bit more room or a seat or something. That makes you feel old.

Does it?

When you get on. I didn’t realise I was that old you see. So when you get on a bus and some, never a kid but normally even women will stand up for me, because I’ve got a walking stick or I’m limping or I’ve got that frame. That makes you feel old. If I’ve got the frame I’m fine, I’ve got the walking stick, I’m fine but they treat me as though I’m old so I must be old.

So is that a good thing? Does it show respect? Or is it a bad thing?

I don’t think I need all that respect. Not really.

Val: I’ve been more concerned about my mobility which is not very good and of course, the main things I suppose when you’re older, your hearing, your eyesight and your teeth. But I find that the mobility perhaps is the worst, the attitude of people to you is quite different, my walking stick means that people open doors, make way for me to pass along passages or around tables at restaurants.

Austin: Find you chairs.

Val: Yes, they pull out chairs and push in chairs but I just feel that I’m made to feel different, that I’m not normal. The lack of mobility to me is not exactly a disgrace but I’m slightly ashamed of it but then with that goes a recognition that people who have mobility problems need help.

It just makes me feel I’m not one of the others, that I’ve now dropped out.

Austin: Well it’s not true but you feel that way, you feel obligated, it makes you feel that you’re being patronised a bit. Actually, it is a bit of a problem because I make sure that Val has got a chair or something but I like to wander around and talk to people and it’s easier for me but they do come up and talk to her, but there is no problem if everybody’s seated, that’s fine.

It’s no fun being old in Sydney. You are despised for being old, you are treated like some sort of boobie. I keep getting people asking me if I’m all right. I think it’s because I’m smiling. They think I’ve lost my mind. Up on the Central Coast, when I was staying at [my friend’s] place, I was about to walk into [a supermarket] and I was waiting for a bloke to move his car out, right, so I could get in the store and he moved his car a metre or so forward, got out of it and came up to me and said, “Are you all right? Will I get a police car to take you home?” Now, that’s what it’s like being old in Australia. It’s rather different than any other place I’ve ever been. You’re treated as though you are a leprous, imbecilic. Yeah, imbecilic certainly. Not a menace to society but, you know, just with contempt.

So, has that been your experience in Sydney and the Blue Mountains as well as the Central Coast?

No, Sydney, Sydney, Sydney. Yeah, that was an odd one on the Central Coast. I was politely looking away, letting him move his car out. I wasn’t glaring at him, meaning “Move your car you bastard. I’m an important pedestrian”. I wasn’t doing that. I was amazed. And yet, when I go to swim, certainly on the Central Coast or when I go to swim at Nielsen Park, I don’t get that at all. I’m a water person, I’m going into the water enthusiastically and the people greet you and everything and you dive into the wave and everything and it’s great, isn’t it, and you’re fine. I don’t feel imbecilic at all or leprous or anything. So, it isn’t everywhere.

Well, I think that everybody shouldn’t be treated the same in the context of their age because there were things that; at times I was spoken down to like a child and that I didn’t like and I’ve seen that quite often, with my mother as well. She lost her leg through diabetes and we were sitting around the table with the social worker and the social worker started talking to me and my sisters and my mum was sitting there. In the end I just banged the table – only because I’m in the industry and I understand a little better. I just banged the table and said, “Excuse me, you’ve just told us that my mother’s brain is; not a thing wrong with her. Will you talk to her, not to us?” That’s what I think we have in the health field. It’s like they’re not treated as intelligent beings and it’s very demeaning. My poor mum was sitting there and they’re talking to us three and she always hated us three having anything to do with her life as it was, because she was a widow at 30, so she’s a very strong woman. So henceforth; it was rather demeaning. I think it’s demeaning to the person. They have that feeling of worthlessness. I know my mum did that day because we talked about it later because she thanked me for doing what I did. My two sisters thought I was rude but I really didn’t care. I was thinking more of mum because that’s wrong. They just told us her brain was fine; there’s nothing wrong with her. Well, if there’s nothing wrong with her, she’s the one to make a decision and she’s the one to sign the piece of paper, then talk to her. So I think that’s a failing then, in social work especially; social workers.

Well there is something that really irritates me. I’ve seen it actually in places where I’ve gone, way back when I gave talks and I’ve seen it on things on television where in aged care sector where people are in nursing homes, I feel that the staff sometimes treat these people as if they are children. You know, “How are we today?” Even going into a hospital and how are we, this really annoys me intensely, and I might reply, “Well I’m fine. How are you?” or “Come along now”, blah, blah, blah. I don’t like that. I think it’s patronising. I don’t like patronising behaviour from anyone at any time.

And that’s been in your experience within hospitals?

It happened to me a couple of times. I can’t even remember now where or when, but I know it’s happened to me because I can remember how I felt.

And how did you feel?

Angry. I felt, you have no right. And I know there might be other people who might feel, perhaps, that they were being nice to them, but I don’t feel that that is right. If they just said, “Marie, how about this, how about that?” yes, fine. I think we need to speak to each other as people at all times in exactly the same way, not in any sort of a patronising fashion.

The issue that I wasn’t counting on, which has been quite a difficult thing to cope with, is that people start to discount you. So, there are terms that a lot of seniors use, like, I feel invisible, or, nobody hears me or, why don’t people just simply see that I’m there. Given that I’ve had a really lucky life and I’ve had wonderful jobs, which has given me lots of authority, lots of independence in terms of decision making, ageing has been like a glass ceiling that I’ve hit, well and truly, and you continue to hit it on a day by day basis, as your reaction or the community’s reaction to you in its landscape, feeds back fairly negative things.

It could be that you’re providing advice in a meeting context, you talk about something that you’re both educated and experienced and qualified to comment on, you make the comment, the meeting – or the vast majority of people at the meeting, don’t even acknowledge that they’ve heard it, then perhaps three or four minutes later somebody around the table will say something exactly the same and all of a sudden people react to it and say, “That’s a good idea.” So, it’s like you didn’t exist.

I feel proud that I’m an older woman and I feel – I think that I’m in a right position, right place because I get support from everywhere. Even my Balanda [white] friends, even my Yolngu [Aboriginal] friends and family. I think I’m in a good position, manymak [good] I feel happy.

What makes you feel happy?

Because one thing, they more respect because I’m older. You know what I’ve been doing, thinking, I’ve been hoping for my white hair for a long time. Because I had black hair for a long time so I see other person that is under me, like she’s about 40 or she’s about 30 or 35, and I’m like 50 and I’m saying “She’s got white hair what about me? I should be having white hair.” Once I have to grow my hair I was happy, my white hair was coming and I think “If they see me with white hair they will have more respect for me,” and I know that I’m an older person now because I’ve been waiting for this white hair for a long time and I’m happy that I’m an older woman.

All Yolngu, whether they’re men or whether they’re women we all have respect for everyone, especially older people, they know. They have to, when they get older, or even when they get sick they have to make big ceremony. Even when an older person is starting to die they make ceremony for him, for the last time until she or he dies. Like when someone is just about to go and finish, not living in this world, they make big ceremony, dance for him so he knows that he’s going into the Promised Land.

Do those, the Chinese values that the Chinese community has towards their elders and people who are much older.

Seniors yeah.

Did that apply to you too?

Yes, my husband was the number one son, though he’d left home, he still, when he’d return, got respect and they always treated me with a similar respect even since he’s passed on.

And how was that expressed to you?

Oh just care and concern and respect for your opinion, you are not isolated in any way, you are very much part of the scene.

Can you give me an example of that?

Well just as every family has its ups and downs and it’s personality conflicts and all these sorts of normal every day events. I was included too, as if I was completely part of the family. I really really valued that, the sense of belonging with them, and I’ve got tremendous respect, the way they do things, their opinions and this solidarity, togetherness, yes.

So when you were attending the Chinese Australian community events, did you feel that sense of respect towards their elders at those events too, from other members of the community not just?

Yes, yes there’s a tremendous – they’ve got something I hadn’t ever experienced before, this really sense of bonding, tremendous, yes. You know when I did a study of Chinese men and that I was just absolutely – not amazed, that sounds as if you’re separated – but, not even in awe, but just in appreciation of how they thought, how they thought about, this sense of family is so strong and togetherness yeah, fantastic. Now this may also happen in other, shall I use that word, ‘ethnic’ groups, I don’t know, I’ve never had the experience, but I would suggest it might be. Whereas in the casual setting – this is damning ourselves isn’t it, we just don’t have that cohesion as strongly as some of the migrant groups do.

What happened to that sense of cohesion that you had when your husband died?

It continued, it didn’t stop. Wife of the number one son.

That is very interesting, because if you are in Sri Lanka and you are ageing, they expect you to stay at home and look after your grandchildren. They look, what shall I say? Astounded if you say you want to go to work after you are 60, or something like that. You have to dress differently, you cannot be all the time in trousers and things, in Sri Lanka they expect your mode of dress is a Sari, you know? Then they’ll get absolutely, what shall I say, shocked if you go out dancing, or things like that. Especially when you are divorced and old. So ageing, I wouldn’t be able to do anything like I am doing now if I was in Sri Lanka. You know? Like going on my own, driving at any time of the night, going places by yourself, all that is sort of taboo in Sri Lanka. All they expect you to do is to really stay with the family, be looking after – and show your individuality, it’s not acceptable when you are old.

I think it’s – they consider you an individual here [in Australia], and you can go to any heights or any level, even though you are old they don’t look at you and say, “Well you can’t go and study with us, you’re too old for it.” The progressiveness is accepted in Australia, whatever you want to do and progress in, in life, they accept it here, but they don’t accept it back in Sri Lanka.